Spirits Of The Old Crown in Birmingham
The Old Crown in Deritend is one of a few remaining examples of Birmingham's medieval past.
It's amazing that this building has survived considering how close it has come to being destroyed during its long life.
It has seen off Civil War soldiers, Victorian town planners, German bombs, and a few centuries worth of drunken Brummies.
No one is exactly sure of the date of The Old Crown's construction, but it is likely it has its origins in the late 14th century and was built by a gentleman called Robert O' The Green. (I haven't been able to find out much about this rather interestingly named fellow).
The building as we see it today probably dates from the Tudor period and the oldest description we have is by John Leland. He visited Deritend in 1538 and was impressed enough to write about it in a letter to his master Henry VIII. He described what he had seen as "a fair mansion of tymber", (Leland, Birmingham Itinerary 1538).
At this time the Old Crown was being used as a guildhall and school. A few decades later it was owned by a businessman called John Dykson.
In 1575, The Old Crown received a very famous visitor indeed. Queen Elizabeth I rested here on her way home after attending a rather exhausting party at Kenilworth Castle. A frieze on one of the bedroom ceilings depicts a Fleur-de-Lys that is said to commemorate the Queen's visit.
The first we hear of it being used as an inn is 1673, when Edward Barber is recorded as the tenant.
By the mid 19th century, The Old Crown was in a pretty desperate state. Dilapidated and unloved it would have been demolished had it not been for Joshua Toulmin Smith. He understood the importance of preserving history and, at great expense to himself, he bought the old place and restored it.
Birmingham could certainly have done with a few more Joshua Toulmin Smiths throughout the years.
The Old Crown has made it to the 21st century and is now a popular pub and hotel.
When I visited it recently I felt as though I was stepping through a doorway into Old Birmingham.
This venerable place, with its long and fascinating history, is a prime candidate for visitors from the past.
Blood must have been spilt in and around the building and people certainly died here. In 1643, a small group of Roundheads made a desperate stand against a much larger force of Cavaliers, under Prince Rupert. The Cavaliers won the battle and went on to rape, pillage and murder throughout the whole area. They wanted revenge for Birmingham's support of Cromwell.
As I have mentioned before on previous blogs, I think traumatic events can act as a trigger for ghostly activity.
Quite a few people, it seems, have encountered ghosts and paranormal activity in The Old Crown.
The present owner's nephew saw a strangely attired man sitting on a beer barrel in the cellar. He described this figure as having long sideburns, wearing a long coat and leather leggings. He also wore a bowler hat.
I think this description sounds like how a pub employee might have looked in Victorian times.
There is a 30 foot deep well in the building which is thought to have been sunk over a thousand years ago. A female figure dressed in a long skirt and blouse has been seen here. She apparently walked from the well to the bar before disappearing.
On several occasions a shadowy spectre has been seen to walk across the bar and straight through a wall. Old photographs show a doorway was once situated in the wall.
At least one Old Crown employee has been scared half to death after being tapped on the shoulder by a mischievous ghost.
Bottles have been seen to jump out of their racks, propelled by some invisible force.
One guest saw a mysterious white mist in her room and thought she heard a soft female voice.
Birmingham Ghosts and Hauntings recently undertook an investigation at The Old Crown. We are still analysing our data and will produce a report for our website before too long with details of our findings.
I wish to thank Anthony and his staff for showing us around and sharing their stories with us (and the endless supply of tea and biscuits).
The Old Crown is well worth a visit. Buy yourself a nice pint of ale and keep an eye out for the ghostly residents that never leave!
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Joanne Morris - Founder of the biggest paranormal investigation group in the Midlands
Joanne,
Why do you always seem to pinch other investigation locations from other groups in the Birmingham and Midlands area without asking as this is very unprofessional and disrespectful.
I would like to add that you are not the biggest paranormal investigation group in the Midlands; as I know of at least two other groups not including my own group that are far bigger than Birmingham Ghosts and Hauntings.
Mark Cave.
Chairman
Lead Co-ordinator
Midland Paranormal Investigations
Does Mr Cave think he actually owns all of the locations he has visited? Has he got some sort of monopoly on paranormal investigations? If I wish to visit The Old Crown and ask the landlord about its ghosts must I first seek permission from Mr Cave? I suggest it is none of his business what people choose to write about or what interests they pursue in their spare time.Why don't you pack your bags and go and live in North Korea Mr Cave.
I detect a jealous streak in your comment Mark perhaps you should relax a little and keep that green eyed monster under control not very good for your reputation I think!
First off Joanne I must say that I stumbled upon your blog today and was quite suprised at what I found, your methodical aproach to everything I must say is quite professional and enjoyable to read. I will be keeping a close eye upon your blog for future investigations that you carry out.
Keep up the good work :]
Now regarding a Mr Mark Cave's comment, I must type this to him, he has the arrogance to suggest that you are being unprofessional and disrespectful, yet he is the one making rather petty comments acting as if he is back in primary school argueing about who "owns" the playground.
I must stress that if Mr Cave would like to be taken seriously in his field of work that he starts accepting other peoples experiences and own experiments as he will earn far much more greater respect from Joanne's readers.
Anyway Joanne I look forward to your next post!
Rebecca
It's a shame that some so called paranormal groups act so unprofessional. I have dealt with BGAH and they have always been professional and respectful and was a pleasure to work with. Midland Paranormal have just shown themselves up, and by their chairman!!! In the quest for evidence we should share experiments and knowledge and yes, places!! As one post says green eyed monster, jealousy can bring you down, and you just have.
I hope the readers of this blog don't think all groups are like Midland Paranormal, there are alot of good groups, like CEPI, another professional group
Also in response to Ernie's comment, again another Midland Paranormal member, When you suggested Jo had copied out of books, I think you find the term is called "Quoting" as all historians quote out of books when talking about the past are you going to insult them!!!
Go back to the "Cave" you crawled from and when you have grown up and you are willing to share good evidence and knowledge please post a comment until then SHUT UP!!
Well Done BGAH !!!
Reply to all.
No I don't own the locations that Midland Paranormal Investigations have investigated to date. However I do not go around investigating locations that other groups have investigated without asking the group who investigated the location previously first as it is professional and curteous to do so; however it seems that all the posts so far have missed my point completely. I do not wish to get into a pointless arguement regarding a misrepresentation of my previous comment.
No jealous streak in my comment or any green eyed monster either to be honest. I do respect other peoples experiences and their investigations and can happily state that I have never investigated a location that has been previously investigated by a local group; I do always ask the owners if there have been previous investigations by any local groups and would contact any such group to ask if they would mind if we investigated their location as it is only respectful to do so.
I hope this clarifies my point as I think respect is the key word here; it is a pitty that no one on these posts showed me any respect by asking what I meant by my previous comment.
Mark Cave.
Chairman
Lead Co-ordinator
Midland Paranormal Investigations
The fact that you insulted Jo on a public website shows you have no respect, if you had you would have contacted her through the BGAH website if it bothered you so much about investigation sites, You earn respect you don't demand it. As my comment before
SHUT UP !!
What a lovely piece about the Old Crown, you sure know how to present an all round picture of whats been going on there. I for one can't wait for your own analysis on the pub. A truely genuine blog I love it! Keep up the good work and lets hope one day you will be able to uncover the mystery that has eluded many of us. Well Done!
Mark
What on earth has it got to do with you what a bunch of other people do on their weekends? This has got nothing to do with respect.
Having an open mind and had experience with paranormal investigations from a couple of groups i must admit i did find joannes team and investigation an eye opener.Like many others i have told of my experience,they laugh it off but being there and seeing the things i have done has changed my mind completely.. after reading mr caves comments i think everyone has the right to an opinion but reading between the lines there seems a slight smell of jealousy!.. im quietly wondering if this streak runs through the veins of his ancestory and hence the surname!.. surely you welcome competition with open arms as having the monopoly would be a tad boring don't you think?
Just wanted to say - having read the report on The Old Crown, i was thorughly impressed with the content and it gives a great insight into the building and its ghostly inhabitants, thus making me want to explore the building, have a drink and relax in its surroundings.
Having lived in Birmingham all my life, this is one of a few extemely interesting old buildings i have not yet visited, many thanks to Birmingham Ghosts And Hauntings team for giving me a chance to have a sneak preview into somewhere i am looking forward to experiencing now x
A great report, from a great group of knowledgable people x
I think that the point being is that respect is not being shown to Mark .A simple question asked and everybody gets all fired up when we are all looking for the same answers .The first question that should be asked is if the location has been investigated before and what was discovered if only to compare to what you, yourself find. So contacting the other investigating group would to me sound like the obvious thing to do .Really are we not all to old to be picking at peoples names .
That should stop in the play ground
I think you Kay are missing the point. It appears that Mark has shown no respect whatsoever looking at his comments. I would have to say that in light of the situation I am very dismayed with Mark's attemps to air his dirty laundry for all to see!
The point here is that as long as permission is given by the owners, managers etc, of a building to be investigated then that's all that matters - not the laws dreamt up by other (professional?) groups. This has been a total disgrace, and I for one have lost all respect for the Midlands Paranormal and the work they do - this is nothing more than bullying! no matter how you try and disguise it and I hope everyone reading this will realise how childish this whole matter is.
Totally shameful and I hope the the newspaper is taking notice as well!
I find this so funny. Who does this Mark Cave thinks he is? sounds more like a wounded ego to me. He does sound as if he has the authority and ownership over the investigations. Get real mate. I drink in the Old crown and I know because I've heard about all the groups that go in there, maybe you should share your views with the pubs boss, afterall he is the one that owns it (maybe that had slipped your mind)?.Hey and it's not like it's a secret you know that the place is haunted. Infact mate people are traveling far and wide from other groups to get in there. Just shows how much you know.
As a regular viewer and observer of this blog, yet having no strong opinions either way re the paranormal, I find myself compelled to add a comment.... it appears to me that there is an idiot, who I shan't name, who seem to be carrying on in what, might not strictly be called a bullying manner, but may be construed as harrassment....to me this means only one thing.... they are frightened, of what I don't know and wonder......
Mark, Who died and put you in charge of the paranormal? Do you have exclusive rights to the paranormal? I don't think you do! Are you seriously expecting every paranormal group to contact you and ask permission to do an investigation?
I am digusted that you think it acceptable to TELL other people what to do, your a bully to put it politely,you have no rights demanding other groups ask your permission to do ANYTHING. I hope there are people reading this that have had experiences of bullies like you within this field and I hope they come forward and tell all. You need to get over yourself!
Reading through the above again:
Putting reasonably strong words like 'arrogance' aside for a while, I believe that there should be an element of general 'pride' and / or pride in 'originality' involved in running a group. In a broader context, people wouldn't be happy in running a business (for example) and going around taking everyone else customers. Needless to say, this does indeed happen, but it doesn't exactly lead to gaining a good reputation (within whatever context), does it?
Lack of originality in finding investigations has been the 'make or break' point of so many groups / researchers in the past. This speaks volumes on so many different levels, I must admit.
Unfortunately, the key problem that all groups are finding these days is the simple fact that - with the sudden 'boom' in professed research groups of late - there are just too many such associations within a given area. When the W.M.G.C. was established in 1989, we were the only research group in the entire West Midlands area at that time. At the time of writing, there are at least 40 groups working in the same region - most of which have appeared as a direct consequence of the 'Most Haunted' fad of recent years.......
Of course, looking at the overall picture, I don't suppose a group is to blame for taking up on any opportunities offered these days? It is a bit of a double-edged sword to be honest however, as a lot of clubs and societies - once they get into a property - endeavour to get it 'closed down' to any other prospective research attempts. Again, this speaks volumes for the so-called 'sharing' research community.
This overall picture is indeed something of a grey area and evidently doesn't just boil down to a matter of who lays claim to what and so on. Respect and originality are two key elements in this field and, if anyone has a modicum of either for / inside themselves, such notions should surely be aimed at others in the same breath?
Sorry for going on, but my 'two-penneth' for what it's worth.
Regards to all,
Nick Duffy
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com
Hi all.
Firstly thanks to all for the comments we receive. This blog is a great success and Jo works very hard on it.
I must however insist that we just keep things to a friendly level and stop any namecalling and accusations.
We don't want to have to ban users or edit comments but we will do so if needs be.
We enjoy reading all of your comments and encourage and welcome feedback.
Best wishes
Mercury Moderator
I once had a pub of which i experienced lots of strange phenomena, so much so that i took the time and the trouble to go to my local spiritualist church so i could gather my own evidence. What i discovered about the spirit world changed my beliefs overnight. I am now a spiritualist and member of the spiritualist church.
Once i knew what i was dealing with i researched many paranormal groups in the West Midlands and Birmingham area with the intention of inviting the groups into my pub and having a look around, i also spoke to other locations who claimed to be haunted to see what there opinions of these investigation groups were. Without doubt the name that came up time after time as the most professional was Joanne Morris and her team from Birmingham Ghosts and Hauntings. Many people will no longer allow investigators onto their premises because of the manner in which they act and i was told of several unfortunate incidents that other venue owners had experienced with investigation teams. Needless to say i invited BGAH to my premises. There was no 'jiggerypokery' with investigators acting as if they were 'Derek Acorah' and in fact the investigation was far from what is seen on the TV. Joanne and her team worked through the night recording sights, sounds, temperature fluctuations and using various equipment gently tried to encourage the phenomena that i personally witnessed on occasion to communicate. The investigation was facinating. Following the investigation Joanne and her team researched my premises and gave me a facinating insight into the buildings history and presented me with a full report. With regards to the comments about paranormal teams stepping on each others toes with the sites I was the premises owner and it was my right to allow who ever i liked on to my premises for what ever reason i chose. If other paranormal investigators had of claimed they had sole right to visit my premises i can assure everyone that they would not be welcome again because they have no right to anything as they are invited onto site in the first place. Even if they call the premises to canvass an investigation ultimately this would end up as an invite to attend.Finally im sure that a newspaper like the Sunday Mercury would of done their own research on these groups before inviting BGAH to write a weekley blog and it would not take long when shopping around to find out who is the best at what they do. I would definately recommend Joanne Morris and her team if you experience anything paranormal and would like BGAH to look into it.I enjoy your blog every week Jo, BGAH has certainly encouraged me to take a more active interest in Birmingham and its history and i look forward to reading about your activities in the future. Keep up the good work!
I will make this my last and final comment.
I totally agree here with What Mr Nick Duffy has to say in his post and respect his comments and opinions as one of the most established paranormal investigators in the Midlands; I do have a lot of respect for any serious investigator who like myself know of some great locations that have been previously investigated by The West Midlands Ghost Club.
So therefore before I even thought about arranging an investigation I would ask the site owner if the location has been previously investigated by any local groups and out of pure respect for that group and the research they have done so far I would contact the said group to ask if they would mind if Midland Paranormal Investigations conducted their own research at one of their investigation locations; I would also like to share experiences and notes with this group as research in this area is so fragile that we must work together or else we fail in this fragile area of research.
To be quite honest I do not mind any group going to our previous locations as long as I know, and the other group is willing to share their findings with us as this may provide vital information regarding the location under investigation.
I agree with Mr Nick Duffy when he says that groups do get into certain locations and close it down to other investigators; Midland Paranormal Investigations do not and will not operate a closed shop.
I do feel that the insurgence of a large number of groups and societies is down to "Most Haunted." has stated by Mr Duffy this has also lead to a lot of profit making from so called serious groups who now run events from certain locations in the Midlands area which now demand quite high fees from non profit making serious research groups.
Respect for Mr Nick Duffy for his valuable and informative contribution and comments.
Mark Cave.
Chairman
Lead Co-ordinator
Midland Paranormal Investigations
Hi All,
I think the general hostility shown towards Mr Cave’s initial, (in my view) perfectly reasonable comments under the circumstances, speaks volumes really, in regards to the mentality of many of the new “Prima donna” groups sprouting out all over the place, mostly due to the advent of that awful Most Haunted programme as somebody mentioned in the earlier comments. It is a sad fact that today, people seem to have a lack of scruples in general, and this is just another example of this ignorance displayed, this time highlighted within the Paranormal investigative field.
It is true, nobody holds dominion over this field of study, ive been doing it years and have got along perfectly well with all other ventures and parties, exploring this once wonderful subject. It is a great shame that, many of the “broken” personalities, now involved in their new “Fad”, also still insist on bringing their associated inadequacies and over inflated ego’s to the Paranormal table as well, so to speak.
In short, it really doesn’t hurt to contact other groups before romping into any potential “places of interest.” Isn’t it just common decency to do this? Ive always thought it is just good manners in general to do this, and as a consequence, I have personally always abided by this unwritten code of practice.
As per Rob’s comments lol.
To be honest though, the rather self indulgent magnanimous claim of being “The biggest paranormal investigation group in the Midlands” is very provocative, and I do not believe, those responsible for this typographical error, do not honestly expect any backlash, or at least difference of opinion coming from other groups within the area who might not particularly agree. In fact I once marginally became involved with a local group who had 45 members at one time? It doesn’t come bigger than that!
Anyway I hope everyone resolves their differences, peace, love harmony and all that, and I just can’t wait for them to pull the plug on Most Haunted and so we can return to the good old days again, oh well I can dream can’t i…. .
Regards
Paul.
Hi Joanne, What a joy it is to read your blogs week in and week out. I can see you put an awfull lot of effort and research into the write ups you bring us. Its a shame that comments gets left from these so called "professional paranormal" groups e.g Midland Paranormal in perticular who seem to think they have the devine right over the spirit world.Does it realy matter what paranormal group was first n whos the biggest and longest run.after reading through the comments two words come to mind "CHILDISH" and "JEALOUSY" i rest my case!! keep up the brilliant work joanne and thumbs up for the sunday mercury for bringing u to us WELL DONE!!
Exellent blog on the Old Crown, you have been busy! I would like to say Thank You for your hard work.
Shame about the handbag comments, I know this is going to sound sad and I can't believe I'm going to say this, Most Haunted, it's rubbish I know, but it has made so many people aware of the paranormal, that probably won't have give it a second thought, surely you have to give them credit for that, yes its for entertainment but it has made people question activity and thats a good thing. So yes I'm defending MH in a back handed way. At least when you say you are a paranormal investigator they don't put a cross to your head, they just say "oohh like Most Haunted?" Noooooooooo
Thank you Jo for an excellent blog on the Old Crown. I have in the past been there and loved the building but have never been lucky enough to do an investigation there so reading your blog has been great.
I'm afraid I am a fan of Most Haunted and don't think it is rubbish at all. I can't afford to do lots of investigations and all the paranormal investigation teams I have contacted have enough members so can't get to do investigations that way so the nearest I can get to an investigation is programmes like Most Haunted and I am sure this is the case for more people.
Thanks again Jo and I hope that certain comments of late don't put you off writing your blogs. Keep up the good work.
Joanne, I look forward to your next blog. Each one I have found very interesting and a joy to read. It's unfortunate that some people feel it is acceptable to try and humiliate people like yourself and other worthy research groups. I am glad that you are not responding to such 'politics' this has nothing at all to do with the paranormal and I believe is only used as an excuse to create turmoil to disguise their own 'issues'.
I would like to add that I have seen this kind of public outburst from other groups and is sad that this sometimes happens. I also know of some smaller Midlands groups that are being targeted and some that have packed it all in due to harassment by so called 'more established groups'.
My advice to you and anyone else that finds themselves embroiled in controversy is to simply ignore!
Best wishes
So Mr Cave
If we look at the wider picture and use the Most Haunted name, if, for instance, a group decide to investigate The Ancient Ramm Inn or Margam Castle they should contact Antix Productions and ask if it's ok to go to THEIR investigation location? What about the groups who want to perform a totally independent invest with absolutely no corruption or contamination of the data they come across and log? So a group has spent maybe 5-6 hours at a location and that means nobody else can go there without asking permission? Come on Mark get real mate!
You comments towards Jo are uncalled-for and unprofessional! You DO NOT air your dirty laundry or misguided negative and insulting thoughts in public and expect to still be considered professional! You are the CHAIRMAN of a group and speak for that group. Therefore you are speaking on behalf of all of your members! Do they agree 100% with you???
Show some respect to other investigators! Jo's work is exemplary, she puts a lot of time, effort and heart into her work and then you come along with your horrible, nasty and cutting remarks! You should have more professionalism, respect AND SENSE!
Visiting a location and investigating it for a few hours DOES NOT make that YOUR location! Simple as that!
Jo, you keep going, I think you're doing a fantastic job!
Daz
Oohh I love an intellectual and informed debate by intellectual and professional people..... but looking at some of the comments (which could be misconstrued as bully-boy tactics) it looks as though I've come to the wrong place..... is that professionalism I can smell....hmmmm don't think so!!
With regards to Darrens comments re. Most Haunted, etc, this wouldn't really be a necessary step, as places like the Ancient Ram have been 'done to death' over recent years, well before the likes of Most Haunted raised it's ugly head. (So that particular argument is a non-starter anyway). As an overly popular site - this place is utterly worthless as a focus of potential, objective investigation and certainly not worthy of serious scrutiny.....
Off topic slightly, but can anyone tell me why some comments posted on this page are 'instantly posted', while others have a 'awaiting clearance by the moderator' (or whatever text) warning??
Regards,
Nick
www.westmidlandsghostclub.com
I agree with Lyndieloo, Most Haunted is a great entertainment programme and ideal for people who have never tried to do this sort of thing before. These blogs are interesting and I’m enjoying the debate. Reading between the lines though, the only examples of Bullying I’m seeing on here are the many ganging up and directing their snipes towards Mr Cave, who is seems to be only saying his piece. One man against how many? It’s a free country isn’t it? If he feels strongly about what he’s saying then what’s the argument. And to have a go at his name is well out of order. Now and again I have a dabble at trying to find ghosts, but working the doors at tamworth and my job as a freelance sparky I don’t get much time anymore. But Ill tell you this, I would rather go with these so called established groups that have been doing this thing for years than some fancy fly by nights. A place I use to work had two groups come in, although I had never seen any ghosts there though. The first a long standing group, were sound and knew their stuff, we had a cracking night, then months later a new group came in, they just laughed and joked all the way through, and left the premises in a right state. Once bitten twice shy, the way I see it, the established guys, running for years, have been running for years for a reason. It’s the same in any career isn’t it, you want to learn from the experienced, not some YTS or YOP schemer, the same goes for this I guess. And as for all these digs about jealousy. Why would established groups, who have seen it, done it, got the t-shirt and done these places many times, long before these new groups came, be jealous of a group starting up and doing their thing, this doesn’t make sense at all. I think Mr Cave is right, respect is earned, certainly not by griping about someone else’s opinion.
Jay
To the author of the blog I'd say that you could view the 'discussion' (I'm loathe to us the term as it appears to be becoming more of a rant by some people...) in one of two ways..
1/ you could sit back and wait until attention span, vocabulary and interest limits are reached (none of which I suspect will take too long!)
2/ view it, as the old saying goes, 'any publicity is good publicity' and have the smug satisfaction that the person or persons posting negative feedback and comments are contributing to the said publicity! (damn I bet that hurts! lol)
whichever you decide its still compelling reading!
Hey Joanne,
As an International Paranormal Investigator and TV Paranormal Investigator, from the hit series The Paranormal 5 on ITV, I get sent so many website links to check out (and I do) and I have to say Joanne, I have been following your investigation portfolio.
Keep up the great work that you are doing, it is very refreshing to see an investigations team or individual investigate for all the right reasons, which sadly today is too and far between.
Not only do you have a filled and packed website of interesting information, but I am sure people who visit your site will learn that little bit extra about what we do as Investigators and our findings. This in itself is a great way of educating visitors of the importance your work and the world of the unknown in general.
Just remember Joanne, that the Paranormal is a free and open road for anyone to travel,to learn and to investigate any location or space which permission has been granted for research, even if it has been investigated before.
No one has a monopoly or right on any such location, and as ive said before, the Paranormal is there to be investigated by everyone.
You have my full support in what you are doing and I will certainly be looking into booking you on The International Paranormal Radio Talk Show as a guest host, as I think our American and International listners would be very interested in hearing about you what you do.
Keep you the great work
Ray Jorden
Hello,
I have just stumbled accross this by accident and read the posts with interest because I have had dealings with the West Midlands Ghost Club.
I am a great admirer of Nick Duffy and the West Midlands Ghost Club. Having worked with them several times over the last 3 years in order to raise funds for various charities. Because of the length of time they have been in existence the experience and knowledge they have accumulated is phenomenal and I'm sure second to none certainly in the UK. I did however work with a certain group of so called paranormal investigators who shall remain nameless and the night was spoilt due to lack of confidence, expertise and knowledge in the subject. They did seem full of their selves bragging that they had found this secret location that no one knows about that is really haunted, it was so secret that I was actually told the location which was one the West Midlands Ghost Club told me had been one of their projects for many years so I can understand the secrecy and attitude in this field. You only have to look on the website of the wmgc to see the ammount of outstanding venues they have been to (not the same ones time and time again) and the press publicity they receive so to sum things up for me whatever the view of the wmgc it is good enough for me.
Who the heck is this Ray Jordan bloke? Anybody ever hear of him before?
Hes evidwently very important in his own mind, which is a nice thing for him i'm sure.
Our-ern
Having just seen the new, helpful response from Our Ern appear, I'm not surprised that this sort of argument will rage on and on indefinitely.
At the end of the day, if the owners / those responsible for a site are happy to let different groups / researchers into their property, then it is completely up to them at the end of the day. Of course, it's a little sad that groups have to try and 'tie-down' a site, but - if the field hadn't become so damned cut-throat within recent years - this whole subject would be infinitely easier to navigate for all concerned.
But I believe we're greatly missing the point here..... The emphasis on running any enterprise should entail a modicum of 'pride' in what you do or achieve. A lot of people in this field call themselves researchers and investigators these days, when the sum total of their investigative prowess appears to be switching the computer on, going on to the net and seeing what cases they can 'borrow' from other local groups. (And I'm not pointing fingers here, just commenting on an all-too-familiar, general scenario). Personally speaking, I don't really see that this entails much 'research' really and I certainly couldn't derive any sense of 'pride' or 'achievement' from such practices ?? However, it has certainly become the norm for a lot of people / groups and anyone not of that persuasion has to just put up with it, I guess.
And this honestly isn't the mutterings of someone with a bee in their bonnet - it's an observation based on a good few years experience in this field and having gleaned a good overview of the subject. The WMGC - amongst a few others - have consistently found 'new' investigations over the years, without having to rely on what other groups have been doing. (We've 'guested' on a handful of investigations over the years, but these have invariably been by invite only not actively sought by the club). If we've been able to do such things over the space of 2 decades, it just strikes me as a bit of a pity that others who, have been running a fraction of the time, can't achieve the same.....
Regards,
Nick
Jo the blogs just keep getting better and better I really enjoy reading them. Keep up the great work that you do and I can't wait to read the next blog.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Speaking from a venue key holders perspective. IF i allowed any investigation group into my venue, i would not tell you i have had other groups in to investigate in order to lower the chance of cross sharing of information!
i found Jane and all the BGAH team to be both professional and friendly before during and after the time they spent with me and my colleagues.
Mark!!! Instead of back peddling on the meaning of your comments why not try the old fashioned method of “sorry! i didn’t mean to offend anyone with my comments BUT there's an unwritten rule where we contact any previous investigators" that is providing you don’t encounter an awkward venue manager like myself who wouldn’t tell you if it had or not.
QUOTE by MARK CAVE!!
"I would like to add that you are not the biggest paranormal investigation group in the Midlands; as I know of at least two other groups not including my own group that are far bigger than Birmingham Ghosts and Hauntings."
Trust me on this one "size dose not matter, it's the quality of the out come that count's" ask any woman.
I investigate paranormal activity myself and trust me on this one i exercise my right to freedom of movement. So what if you have been there before me. I have not and i work for the client and myself not you! If asked, i share my findings freely providing my client agrees to the release of information.
Maybe if group owners got their heads together and built a central database of investigations instead of thousands of sites offering snippets of info heads could be removed from rectums
PLEASE Sir can i stop typing now ?
I have just had a look at the BGAH website and the investigations carried out on there and it appears that it is mainly all pubs apart from 3 venues that have been investigated which leads me to think if many other locations have been investigated why arent they on the website advertising it? To keep it secret I wonder. If the BGAH is really the biggest paranormal investigation group in the midlands I would have thought they would have had access to bigger and better alleged haunted places than pubs (which are always after a little publicity I might add). I also noticed the website is also asking people to donate money towards new equipment (the cheek of it) no equipment has been proven to detect paranormal activity whatsoever, all you need surely is your eyes and ears and they don't cost anything. I also note that there are sensitives in the group which you also can not rely on, how do you know if a sensitive is giving you accurate information? To me they would raise more questions than give answers.
I'm sorry but if I wanted an investigation to be carried out at my premises the BGAH would not be the ones I approached
Donations for kit, eh - what an absalutely classic set-up!
Theyll be charging for investigations next, if they already dont that is. All from a group thats been running for a couple of years using the usual Most Haunted rubbish aproach. He, he. Well worth the money ill bet!
It sounds like there search for investigations is about as good as there ability to come up with fresh stuff for this blog.
If the BGAH group is so good why dont they put more stuff on this blog about what they di instead of copying stuff out of books all the while? No wonder they have to pinch stuff from other people theyre so orignal.
Our- ern
Why don't those of you who choose to ridicule back off and let a new paranormal group have a go. You self opinionated bunch of hypocrits.You are fearing of what they might become (more well respected in this field than yourselves) so whoever the cap fits they certainly should wear it! This is not a p*** take serious research goes on and have you numb nuts ever thought that the reason behind other venues not being mentioned could be down to PRIVATE investigations and yes some groups have been running for a long time but you know how the saying goes remove the old dead wood so that new greener shoots may appear.You should be pleased that a group in such a short time has gotten this far shame on you all!
The old men groups like Cave and WGCM get me angry. I am also in group in Birmingham area called P.A.R.A.M.I.L.F.S, we like Bvirmingham Ghost and Hauntings are just new, and maybe do not know what we are doing sometime, but we learn and not many places are there for us to start. So what do we do to get going and do things right.You ask me.This arguing makes me very angry.Me and my friends also like Most Haunted so there.Keep up good work BirminghamGhost and Hauntings. Thank you.
Tally
Yes, the truth often hurts. I'll donate 50p, that should buy a bag of elastic bands to seal the bags of bull poo that I'm sure you keep coming out with.
Pssst, by the way, I hear that there is a haunted cemetery in Willenhall at Wood Street if your interested. I know it's haunted because a sensitive told me. Keep it to yourself though because everyone will want to go.
by resorting to stupidity gets you nowhere Laurie
withe regard Laurie to your comment on sensitives you have to get the whole picture not just half how are you suposed to make a fair and accurate judgement on any investigation all avenues are to be explored not just the ones you fancy doing
Angela, too many places have ghostlore attached to them just because a medium says there is a ghost there when in fact there isn't. Haunted places in my opinion are places where people have seen and witnessed things over a long period of time. If I were going to conduct an investigation I would research the facts not the supposed facts. I was invited to a charity event recently at Alton Towers and there were 2 mediums contradicting eacother all the time so which one should I believe? Neither. If the security guard told me he'd actually seen a figure several times and so has his colleague then I am more inclined to believe that as a fact than what a medium tells me. The Dudley Ghost Walk is a typical example of invented ghosts becoming ghostlore but if people aren't willing to put them selves out and do their homework then let them waste their money.
While having continued to watch this thread with some interest, I must admit that I don't derive any pleasure from what I'm seeing here and - in all honesty - it only serves to 'prove' all that could be held as wrong with this field today......
Leading on from Mr Caves initial query - something worthy of serious debate and consideration in the grand scheme of things - and all that we're getting is two (or more) camps taking snide pot-shots at each other, amid a mix of general silliness and nastiness.
While I'm not taking sides here - some of the pro-newbie arguments (if that's what they can be called) speak volumes. Accusations of 'Jealousy' (ahhh - that old chestnut, frequently pulled out in moments of sheer desperation)is always an absolute rib-tickler. Yes - I can well see the validity of that argument, given that the accused are usually well-established concerns with already good reputations and sizeable case files of their own, etc. I can perfectly understand why people going out and working for their research material would be jealous of people who either 'borrow' cases from other groups, or frequently take the easy option and pay for access to sites. (Which utterly and instantly negates the worth of any site, of course).
I absolutely love Jans comment on removing 'dead wood for newer shoots'.... I do wonder where the evidence for the 'Dead Wood' phrase comes from and ... would the WMGC be regarded as such given 20 years in existence while maintaining a continually 'fresh' case-load and never adhering to cliche and stereotypical cultural motifs ???
To the contrary, over the past three years alone, I've seen at least ten to 15 'new' groups (in the West Midlands alone) appear and instantly vanish again without trace. (I believe these might be some of the 'newer shoots' that Jan speaks so highly of?) The simple reason for this is the fact that these concerns are set up - usually as a sheer by-product of seeing a naff TV programme, these days - without the (so called) organisers having taken a necessary case-load into consideration. The next step is usually to scour the internet - and other sites for input - and then, when that dries up, to instantly 'throw in the towel'..... The amount of times over the years where we've been contacted by a freshly-founded society, asking (begging to be told) where they can get cases from??????? The mind boggles.......
As a final note on the 'dead wood' comment - people seem to forget that it's the 'newer shoots' that are to blame for most of the back stabbing trouble which has appeared in this field over recent years. Unfortunately, there is only the so called 'dead wood' who recalls a more peaceful, respectful time without people continually ripping you off and injecting skullduggery into this subject!!
On the other hand - and, as I said, I'm not taking sides here or pointing fingers - some of the comments levelled at Jo and the BGAH group have been utterly pathetic in the extreme !!! (Most courtesy of Mr Pimlico, I hasten to add !!!)
Some people really need to grow up and just get on with things....
Regards - to all,
Nick
My God, looking through these comments, I can’t believe how much anger and resentment is being shown towards innocent parties i.e. the more established groups. Fortunately, I have had the pleasure of collaborating with many of these people down the years, assap,wmgc.mpi the list goes on….
For your own sakes, if you feel so resentful towards the likes of people who share the same interest as you, but have been established for much longer, and you have never even met them or shared the pleasure of their company, then there is something fundamentally wrong with you, and I suggest a good psychiatrist and lengthy course of tablets. Why have you never thought of approaching these groups for friendship/guidance and generally information sharing, instead of making wild, ridiculously untruthful accusations towards them. Tal’s comments referring to these establishments as “Old Men” is just plain rude, but I suppose its to be expected, this seems to be the trend with most new fledgling groups. I would like to say that bgah are not amongst these types but, going on the evidence of this debate, I honestly can’t.
These seems to be no strength to the arguments put forward in response to the initial question of “Why do you always seem to pinch other investigation locations from other groups in the Birmingham and Midlands area without asking as this is very unprofessional and disrespectful? All we are getting back is the standard “The paranormal is for everybody, we shouldn’t have to ask.” type responses. Im sure you might have a genuine reason why you choose not to give a straight answer but at the moment by standing by this “blanket” comment, comes across, shallow, unprofessional and dare I say it, yet again very rude.
As per Jan’s comments below, I really couldn’t disagree with you more.
“Why don't those of you who choose to ridicule back off and let a new paranormal group have a go.” The way I am reading the comment’s, no one has actually ridiculed your group or tried to stop you “HAVING A GO.” Whatever that means? The truth is painful I know, but no one really cares what you or your group actually does, it really isn’t important. It’s just that a valid answer is required in regards to the initial question.
“ You self opinionated bunch of hypocrits.” Again Jan this is very abusive, you’ve also spelt hypocrites wrong but I won’t hold that against you. But seriously, to state something like this, you do need to have circumstantial evidence, and state who you are accusing, because “Innocent parties” might feel the implications are directed towards them.
You are fearing of what they might become (more well respected in this field than yourselves) “Just is it the many established groups meant to be frightened of? And for what reason? Just what exactly will this unknown entity become? What exactly is this fear? Who in the field is already well respected? After all as you have already said, surely no body will respect a self opinionated bunch of hypocrites will they now? By the way delusions of grandeur can also be sorted out with a reputable psychotherapist.
“So whoever the cap fits they certainly should wear it!” Sorry I don’t follow?
“This is not a p*** take serious research goes on and have you numb nuts…” Listen to the voice of serious research, this is hardly the vocabulary of one who would like to be respected.
“Yes some groups have been running for a long time but you know how the saying goes remove the old dead wood so that new greener shoots may appear.” I honestly haven’t heard this old saying, but I’m certain you are implying that you wish for all the long, established investigative groups to disband and pursue other interests. Why would you want this? Surely it is healthy, for these groups to be in place, for the reasons I have stated earlier in this post. Jan, this logic, is not commensurate to someone in a group who states “serious research” goes on, does it now.
“You should be pleased that a group in such a short time has gotten this far shame on you all!” What group are you referring to, has travelled this far? How far have they travelled? By who’s standards has this distance been measured? Have the roads you have travelled, been used by groups before you? Have they improved the road handling surface for you? The questions are endless.
Look I don’t really wish any bad feelings towards you, im just retaliating against your displayed arrogance, ignorance and lack of feeling towards other peoples opinions.
Yes, I am advancing in years, and yes I do know, many people in the myriad of established groups, once being a investigator myself. You have no right to criticise anything.
Regards
S. Judkins
Hmm - it sounds very much like Laurie Rosenberg has been moving in the same circles as yours truly lately !!?? I've also attended an investigation at Alton Towers.... and I'd guess you might have been reading of my friends experience in the Willenhall graveyard recently?
The psychic in me is getting the words 'Birmingham related forum', for some reason, but I might be wrong, of course !?! Lol, Lol!!
If you don't mind my asking - were you with the paranormal group from Solihull (I think?) who we spoke with on the roof?? (They had a dodgy EMF meter from the Fright Nights kit box and were considering dropping it into the courtyard! LOL!).
Apologies for the nosiness!!
Regards,
Nick
Lol, Lol, Lol !!!!
Just clicked Laurie - you're 'Loz R' from our (the W.M.G.C.) forum, aren't you !!!! LOL !!!
I'm the idiot who actually accepted you recently - not usually my job, to be honest - and I still didn't put two and two together!! Pillock!!
Sorry, but old age and all that..... you know!!!
Make sure you introduce yourself and don't be shy to post something up (like most are!!)
Look forward to speaking to / with you,
Regards,
Nick
Well hello again Nick. Isn't it a small world. Yes it was me on ther roof. I was with the group from Solihull but no more for various reasons. Alton Towers was a bit of a let down I don't know what you thought of it. I am going back there again soon though on another charity investigation with a different party so I'm hoping for a more entertaining evening. I haven't been on the Birmingham forum but I will check it out. If your interested in coming along to the charity event at Alton then let me know I'll try and get you in.
Thanks Loz... LOL!!!
Apologies all, but back on track now.....
While I greatly agree with the bulk of Mr Judkins points, I do wonder if his comment: 'I would like to say that bgah are not amongst these types but, going on the evidence of this debate, I honestly can’t', is actually correct?
I know the key point of this argument was instigated by Mr Caves query regarding the BGHAH potentially 'treading on the toes of his group' regarding one, specific site, but a simple inspection of their overall investigations list should (for anyone interested in 'objective' and measured scrutiny) determine whether this was a 'one off' or a 'trend'. Having just taken a brief look, I do have to commend Jo and her club for some of their 'acquisitions'!!! (There are a number of places mentioned that have been 'done previously' and / or currently by others - including a couple by the WMGC, LOL - but there are a couple of corkers too!!)
Regards,
Nick
A great blog there with lots of interesting info.
I can't believe the comments on here. Surely it is up to the owners who investigates their property not another group.
Also isn't it better NOT to know the findings of a previous group therefore a fresh investigation. Its not as though any "spirits" are going to say "sorry I can't communicate with you as I have a deal with such and such"
I would like to say thank you for some entertaining reading as it has taken me right back to my childhood. My dads bigger than your dad.
was that ernie plimlico or tweety i saw in a comment?? now what was i saying about vocabulary etc..... hmmmm
Who is saying things about vocabulary on this thread after using no capital letters at the beginning of sentences and when writing down names; the peculiar and random usage of commas where not needed; the misuse of certain words, eg, the word professional refers to an occupation, as in livelihood and monetary reward for services rendered and I don't think anyone here is getting paid and really making a living as a paranormal researcher.
If people are going to try and look clever and intellectual, hmmmm, some experience and a show of aptitude in these quarters would not go amiss.
Sorry, I was just trying to look clever at the cost of people I think might not be able to write as well as me.
Nice web page, but pity about all of the pathetic backbiting.
Sooz
Oh dear (blink) Now I don't profess to be very clever when writing things but Sue certainly does. In a war of words no one ever wins so why don't you all meet up and have a proper fight :-) just joking of course.
It would be nice now if you would all stop the (and I quote from Sue) the pathetic backbiting put your dummies back in and just post constructive comments.
Well said Mr. Blunt !!!!
Regards,
Nick
Great stuff Joanne, and very funny too. Well done! I get it... lol.
Brill blog on the Civic Jo. I was there with The Human League ahhhhh Phil singing the Mirror Man done it for me.
Can't wait to go again, all there were really friendly.
Lets see if the spot light moves again, that was a speechless moment and one I will never forget, that was my proof as there was no logical explanation.
Bring it on xxxxx
Didn't bgah conduct this investigation around May or earlier this year? I just wondered why it took so long to blog it coz I'd blog as I do them. I remember another group investigating the Civic around 5 years ago but I can't recall who it was now (old age n all that. Quite a nice read though so well done.
Interesting... Do you think this trend will continue? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
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this is my funny.
my english is not good. for its i cant write good. i want to use this text in my website can i use? porno izle if you give permisson me i will happy.
Again thank you
regards